Author Topic: A Modest Proposal  (Read 10796 times)

ThePepe

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2013, 02:06:19 am »
I know a good 15+ people on my friends list would actually play on the server, if it ever had Fixed Spread, including myself. Random Spread is something I hate, so it results in me roll stacking just to make up for it. The stats are also something that I enjoyed playing the server for, I remember actually not roll stacking when it used to be active, to earn my top 5 that way. There is always supporting the comp scene too, like enabling Fixed Spread, which is highly enjoyed and wanted by a lot of players.

I'm going to guess that those 15 plus people are mostly competitive players. We really want to keep the server friendly for casual players. Things like fixed spread, no random crits, and class limits are not what RTD is about. We like our randomness, it's the point of the server.

If we actually manage to get players into the server, it'll probably fix the population problem, and then we can go on from there. All that has to happen first, is to sustain a stable population for the server, then balances can take place. Look at the Pay 2 Win servers, they have a high population of players, yet no one really cares about the balance of the Max ammo, and stuff like that.

Abridge

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2013, 02:15:06 am »
I believe we can make things fair and still keep them fun. The stats and player of the month really seem to drive off new players by creating an overly competitive environment. Not all noobs want to grind for months to get a shot at getting a random trinket that may or may not be good. We're doing all this to attract new players that like playing casually.

I know a good 15+ people on my friends list would actually play on the server, if it ever had Fixed Spread, including myself. Random Spread is something I hate, so it results in me roll stacking just to make up for it. The stats are also something that I enjoyed playing the server for, I remember actually not roll stacking when it used to be active, to earn my top 5 that way. There is always supporting the comp scene too, like enabling Fixed Spread, which is highly enjoyed and wanted by a lot of players.

I'm going to guess that those 15 plus people are mostly competitive players. We really want to keep the server friendly for casual players. Things like fixed spread, no random crits, and class limits are not what RTD is about. We like our randomness, it's the point of the server.

Pepe never mentioned No random crits and class limits. It's generally aware that enabling no random crits breaks the mod and class limits are just stupid and prevent stupid silly fun. Most of the regulars are competitive fuckers fellows that have way more skill than your average tf2 player. Hell we have fucking glorious dice as an incentive, MVP dice encourage competition. Pepe has told me that RTD is the most competitive server he plays on, and he's right, the regulars on RTD really care about winning, when its RTD. The casual play that you speak of was never a thing on RTD. Plus casuals can be competitive.

I personally would love fixed spread, however I believe that fixed spread does make it harder to funnel players with the way valve's system works.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 02:18:41 am by Abridge »



Spycheckme!

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2013, 02:16:35 am »
I know a good 15+ people on my friends list would actually play on the server, if it ever had Fixed Spread, including myself. Random Spread is something I hate, so it results in me roll stacking just to make up for it. The stats are also something that I enjoyed playing the server for, I remember actually not roll stacking when it used to be active, to earn my top 5 that way. There is always supporting the comp scene too, like enabling Fixed Spread, which is highly enjoyed and wanted by a lot of players.

I'm going to guess that those 15 plus people are mostly competitive players. We really want to keep the server friendly for casual players. Things like fixed spread, no random crits, and class limits are not what RTD is about. We like our randomness, it's the point of the server.

If we actually manage to get players into the server, it'll probably fix the population problem, and then we can go on from there. All that has to happen first, is to sustain a stable population for the server, then balances can take place. Look at the Pay 2 Win servers, they have a high population of players, yet no one really cares about the balance of the Max ammo, and stuff like that.


Those servers are universally hated for that very reason.  Sure they have a higher population but it attracts the worst kinds of players and isn't a very friendly environment.  Do we really want to go that route?  I don't think it would be a good idea.  We've hit a point on RTD where older players are leaving and moving on and we aren't getting any new players.  When was the last time you saw anyone on the server that's a newer player recently that has played consistently?

One of three things needs to happen.
1.) We change the server to have it be more accessible.
2.) We try to invite people every single night and hope newer people stay.
3.) We whore out to pinion and have pay to win crap.

Option 3 sucks.  And 2 hasn't been working at all these last months which leads us back to the first option.  So if you guys want to keep everything the same on the server; you better hope you can populate it soon or start donating or its going to disappear.  Its as simple as that.

Dr.Panzer89

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2013, 02:25:40 am »
Pepe never mentioned No random crits and class limits. It's generally aware that enabling no random crits breaks the mod and class limits are just stupid and prevent stupid silly fun. Most of the regulars are competitive fuckers that have way more skill than your average tf2 player. Hell we have fucking dice as an incentive, MVP dice encourage competition. Pepe has told me that RTD is the most competitive server he plays on, and he's right, the regulars on RTD really care about winning, when its RTD. The casual play that you speak of was never a thing on RTD. Plus casuals can be competitive.

Yes, I know he never mentioned either or those two. I mentioned them as an example of what is usually on more competitive servers. MVP dice rewards are something under consideration for change right now. Also there is a difference between wanting to win, which in it of itself is not a bad thing, and being overly competitive and wanting to do nothing but win at all costs. My experience when I started with RTD was that it was a very relaxed, very casual atmosphere, I believe you came in at a very different time to a very different atmosphere.

ThePepe

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2013, 02:26:54 am »
I know a good 15+ people on my friends list would actually play on the server, if it ever had Fixed Spread, including myself. Random Spread is something I hate, so it results in me roll stacking just to make up for it. The stats are also something that I enjoyed playing the server for, I remember actually not roll stacking when it used to be active, to earn my top 5 that way. There is always supporting the comp scene too, like enabling Fixed Spread, which is highly enjoyed and wanted by a lot of players.

I'm going to guess that those 15 plus people are mostly competitive players. We really want to keep the server friendly for casual players. Things like fixed spread, no random crits, and class limits are not what RTD is about. We like our randomness, it's the point of the server.

If we actually manage to get players into the server, it'll probably fix the population problem, and then we can go on from there. All that has to happen first, is to sustain a stable population for the server, then balances can take place. Look at the Pay 2 Win servers, they have a high population of players, yet no one really cares about the balance of the Max ammo, and stuff like that.


Those servers are universally hated for that very reason.  Sure they have a higher population but it attracts the worst kinds of players and isn't a very friendly environment.  Do we really want to go that route?  I don't think it would be a good idea.  We've hit a point on RTD where older players are leaving and moving on and we aren't getting any new players.  When was the last time you saw anyone on the server that's a newer player recently that has played consistently?

One of three things needs to happen.
1.) We change the server to have it be more accessible.
2.) We try to invite people every single night and hope newer people stay.
3.) We whore out to pinion and have pay to win crap.

Option 3 sucks.  And 2 hasn't been working at all these last months which leads us back to the first option.  So if you guys want to keep everything the same on the server; you better hope you can populate it soon or start donating or its going to disappear.  Its as simple as that.

What I was talking about, is that newer players actually do not care about the roll stacking, and the people who do join, are USUALLY new to TF2. There is always the option to keep everything the same, but changing minor things that could easily bring in lots more players. If the server goes to the Pinion Pot of Chit route, no one will even join the server, more people hate that, than all of the Pay 2 Win servers combined!

There could also be sponsorship, in which you guys could sponsor a team, and that could bring in more players, like what Lotus Clan did with bpm from Highlander. Really don't know what else to say atm, I'm really tired, I'll prolly just wait for more posts to come by.

Spycheckme!

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2013, 02:37:55 am »
Lets pretend I'm a new player.  I don't know anything about RTD or read the message of the day at all.  I join this server, RTD.  I spawn, I'm killed within 5 feet by a scout using the force of nature firing really fast (berserker) with a clip of 10 shots (ammo regain).  I died, I shrug it off and spawn again.  I manage to hit the scout this time a few times before dying 5 feet from spawn again.  At this point, I go through every class trying to kill the scout.  I ask whats going on?  How is the scout doing this?  Not getting any response or help.  I get a lucky headshot on the scout as a sniper; still doesn't die (armor) and manages to kill me.  At this point I'm not having fun.  I don't know whats going on; I can't do anything and no one is trying to teach me or even being friendly.  I leave the server and blacklist it.


And this is whats been happening repeatedly on the server.  This is the problem.  We aren't getting any new players.

Rick

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2013, 03:14:47 am »
OK yea armor fucking sucks, but your statement about how "we" like our randomness stinks of in-grouping.

Quote
Trinkets are just flat out overpowered, we've all agreed on that point. If we give everyone all the trinkets, we'll see the same two or three trinkets equipped on every player. We want to avoid this. I also agree with the talent point idea, we're working on it.
Then we buff up the "common" ones. I really don't see the argument for how they're overpowered. As to Nightmare mode, I seriously don't see an audience for this. Have you actually asked these players if they want this?

EDIT: Also agree with abridge on the new players rollstacking thing. They see that shit, they wanna be that shit. If a player has that amount of rollstacks, then they're probably a regular. And if regulars aren't answering noobs, what hope do we even have?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 03:16:57 am by Rick »

Jarrett000

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2013, 03:53:23 am »
One of three things needs to happen.
1.) We change the server to have it be more accessible.
2.) We try to invite people every single night and hope newer people stay.
3.) We whore out to pinion and have pay to win crap.
Or 4.) Finally enable Quickplay and build a new community. Dunno why nobody did this ages ago, the RTD mod doesn't disqualify us from Quickplay. Our sv_tags that have to do with respawn times do.
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Spycheckme!

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2013, 08:59:35 am »
One of three things needs to happen.
1.) We change the server to have it be more accessible.
2.) We try to invite people every single night and hope newer people stay.
3.) We whore out to pinion and have pay to win crap.
Or 4.) Finally enable Quickplay and build a new community. Dunno why nobody did this ages ago, the RTD mod doesn't disqualify us from Quickplay. Our sv_tags that have to do with respawn times do.

I wasn't aware of this.  Thats an idea too.  I thought the RTD mod wouldn't allow us for quickplay.

EDIT: Also agree with abridge on the new players rollstacking thing. They see that shit, they wanna be that shit. If a player has that amount of rollstacks, then they're probably a regular. And if regulars aren't answering noobs, what hope do we even have?

If new people want to rollstack and be powerful like everyone else then why has the server been so dead?  Why haven't we had any new people as of these past 6 months?  The numbers say otherwise Rick.

Majicaster2

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2013, 12:11:49 pm »
First off, can we remove all of the new maps to the admin menu? I am pretty sure that new players/casual players don't really like to play on newer maps. I remember when I first played, I stuck with a few servers and just rotated with them. Eventually, I got used to playing Dustbowl and kept playing it until I met RTD on a Dustbowl server.

Also agree with abridge on the new players rollstacking thing. They see that shit, they wanna be that shit. If a player has that amount of rollstacks, then they're probably a regular. And if regulars aren't answering noobs, what hope do we even have?

I actually don't buy rolls too often. 99% of the time, it is just to buy the levitate roll (I haven't played in such a long time that I forgot the name -sigh-), and grab floating dice. I get all of my rolls by RTD'ing. Heck, I sometimes don't even use my +use rolls even when the map starts to change. I don't know if there are others like me or if I am an anomaly.  But all that aside, I don't really mind answering newbs on how to play or how to do something.

One of three things needs to happen.
1.) We change the server to have it be more accessible.
2.) We try to invite people every single night and hope newer people stay.
3.) We whore out to pinion and have pay to win crap.
Or 4.) Finally enable Quickplay and build a new community. Dunno why nobody did this ages ago, the RTD mod doesn't disqualify us from Quickplay. Our sv_tags that have to do with respawn times do.

I wasn't aware of this.  Thats an idea too.  I thought the RTD mod wouldn't allow us for quickplay.

Are there any server side mods that will disqualify me from Quickplay since some do not change sv_tags?

No, we are not automatically disqualifying servers for server side mods. If the mods results in a better or worse player experience, that will be reflected in the back-end server score.


I read up on it a bit, too. RTD is perfectly legit.

Dragnix

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2013, 04:45:08 pm »
Here's my 2 cents about the situation.

People who said that RTD was about fun: you're right. It is. Abridge, yeah, that's exactly what it's about. But here's the thing: there was a balance with it always. Being competitive is one thing. Being competitive and feeling like the other team has got your dead to rights and you're out of your league before the match even begins: that's another.

We miss fox, everyone knows this. But even with fox: you guys don't know what happened behind the scenes. Remember Diarhia? And how ridculously overpowered it was to begin with? Well, part of that was the rest of the team working through the problems, and then fox tweaking it. Fox was the main guy: but everyone else played a part. Pointing out what was balanced, pointing out what was not. The problem I see is very very simple:

There's a divide in the community.

Yeah, I'm not skating around this anymore. There's a strick divide between two groups of people here. There's bitterness, there's hurt feelings, and most of all, there's anger. Myself included. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like it doesn't exist: it does.

I'm not going to sit here and get stuck in that: but the problem here is that strick divide is what has lead to the problem that is occuring right now. Two trains of thought:

1. RTD is an open server, newbie accessable, still fun but still has balance.
2. RTD is fun, letting players do what they want and that's it, throw balance issues aside.

There is a middle ground here. RTD can still be crazy, and still be nuts and be balanced. But both groups have a point.

What's kept RTD running so long is that craziness, is learning the mod, and getting better. But on the flip side of that, having that new experience of "what the hell is this?", and that shock factor that's played into it.

Look, I want RTD to survive, I do, but this two sided problem  has to end now. BOTH side have legimate arguments. I'm not letting my bitterness get in the way any more at this point. But with that said, let it be said: what we've been doing up to this point? It's not working. The server is constantly dead, and nothing is going to change that until this is resolved.

But let me point out somethiing: Panzer has been workign behind the scenes to try to figure out how to get things moving again. At least talking to me spycheck, and rhia. I can't say the same for anyone else, but no one else has really talked to me. But the fact that several people have come out of the woodwork to say "hey, I want this to stay alive", means something. That the mod is still wanted.

I haven't helped. I've been intenesly busy with work for the last 3 months, and the last thing I wanted to do was code when I got home. Well, The big project that I was working on and leading is wrapping up. I have more time. And I want to make changes: that still has the game balanced but still fun. You can have both.

Both sides need to sit down and look at what the other is saying: legimately. Realize what the other side is coming from. And realize that "hey, maybe they have some points on it."

What made this community great were the people. What will bring this community back together are the people. Working together. Lincoln said "a house divided against itself cannot stand". This is pretty much what happened. Ever since the divide: RTD has been dead.

That's the only way this is going to happen.




             

Rick

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2013, 04:52:18 pm »
OK whatever I don't really give a shit about other stuff, can somebody please explain to me how removing/nerfing trinkets is a good idea?

PS I believe in Quickplay Jesus

Dragnix

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2013, 05:00:22 pm »
I believe it's that certain trinkets end up being too game changing in the end, where a player can't recover reasonably from it. Example: think cogen with bloodthrister before it was slightly nerf. He hardly died. Spies gave him trouble, but if he was on then things just went batshit crazy rather quickly.

It's something that can be worked on. There's a happy middle ground here, it's just a matter of where that middle ground is.


             

Dragnix

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2013, 05:02:03 pm »
First suggested change I like: after initially throw, diarhia spawns poop, not more instances of it's self.



             

Majicaster2

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2013, 05:16:23 pm »
Will it still have the mini-crit and the bleed function? I feel like that is a staple of DiaRhia.

Of course, I am totally fine with it not spawning even more poop. That was annoying as heck.